Whither the Downtown Association

Two questions are now biting at the heels of the Downtown Association and its Executive Director Scott Knies: namely, just who do they represent and what do they stand for at this critical time in downtown’s evolution? These are questions that must be answered. Although they certainly make an effort lobbying for light rail platforms and bus routes in a constant and pressing manner, on the more significant issues of downtown’s character and direction, they are in a dubious and contradictory position. Knies is a good man with a nagging identity problem. The top-heavy Downtown Association is an enigma at best. At worst, they are a lobbying arm for nightclubs and entertainment promoters. A choice is now necessary. Time is running out for them and the future of downtown.

In the San Jose Police Department, it is a standing joke that when they see Knies, it is time to discuss late-night openings, nightclub licenses and tattoo parlors. SOFA landlord and Knies supporter Richard Berg uses him as fulltime front man for his many clubs and dubious enterprises—a fact that bothers many at City Hall.  Someone once mentioned that Berg would not know a can of paint if one was handed to him. It is a well-known fact that nightclubs pay the most rent and require the least from the landlord. Berg has capitalized on this for years.

This, of course, begs the question of what the Downtown Association should be. I would like to challenge Scott Knies, his executive Board—Art Bernstein, Jim Salata, Rich Sutton, Eric Sahn—and thoughtful board members like John Conway and Rick DiNapoli to weigh in before it is too late.  It is time to state just what their vision of our downtown is because no one can figure it out now. Look ahead five years. Can they reconcile nightclubs with new condos, late-night revelers with small business operators, and promotions that consistently bring boisterous and unruly crowds to so many of their events with a downtown of thriving neighborhoods and prosperous businesses? There is a notable contradiction in their operation and their leadership.

It is time for those who care about our neighborhoods and small businesses to stop the enabling and promotion of those “quick buck” operators and landlords who are pushing our city in the wrong direction. It is time to speak up and stand up. At long last, it is time for a bit of courage and a lot less log rolling.

Many await their answers and we offer them a forum here on San Jose Inside.


  1. Downtown nightclubs have been nothing but problems for the downtown.  The patrons they bring to the downtown neither help small businesses nor provide anything to the downtown but problems, traffic, trash, broken bottles, fights and noise.  They take the time of police when they could be dealing with other more important things and problems in the city.  Lets restrict these quick buck nightclub owners who have no regard for our city or it’s problems.  They provide nothing and bring in trouble makers from all over the bay area.  This is like most things all about the quick buck.  Who controls the downtown association these nightclub owners.

  2. Hey Tom—I’m always out of the loop, but I don’t understand why it’s the Downtown Association’s responsibility to come up with a plan for downtown. Their job is to make do with what’s there right now (and it may be that way forever). I thought it was the Planner’s job to plan, and the Council’s job to lead the way. Downtown SJ isn’t a failure because of the nightclubs and the demographic it attracts, it’s a failure because it’s dead as a doornail from Friday afternoon til Monday AM, and because there’s nothing to do during the day for workers downtown except to have lunch. Worse, there’s nothing for the wives of conventioneers to do while their main squeeze is jabbering about gigabytes. NO SHOPPING=NO FUN. And there’s nothing for the denizens of downtown in their low rise condos to do except to drive to downtown Los Gatos, Campbell Santana Row, Aptos, Cruz (braving the hippies) or even Monterey or SF—or Montebello Ridge—or wait for the occasional festival near the banks of the so-called Guadalupe River Park. George Green

  3. And by the way, New York City had a Robert Moses, Olmstead and many outstanding architects to PLAN the city. I don’t think the Downtownies are in the same league. How can there be a downtown SJ if all the honchos, including you, just gripe about what it is. Let’s get some there here. George Green

  4. San Jose now has 3 successful downtown retail areas – old downtown, Santana Row and new downtown SJ Marketplace on Coleman.

    Arts and entertainment plans will attract few more customers to downtown but will be at least 10 years before there will be enough new high rise residents to attract more retail to old downtown area

    Scott Knies is doing exactly what majority of Council and Downtown Association Board from Chamber, San Jose State, real estate, developers, property owners, downtown corporations, bankers and lawyers wants him to do   Look at Board Membership and you will see Board controls downtown


    Downtown Association Board realizes, unlike a few vocal minority critics who’s business interests are being hurt, that there is no other realistic large alternative source of downtown nighttime business for years to replace the highly successful and profitable nightclubs, restaurants and entertainment promoters who pump millions of dollars and thousands of jobs into downtown with a very low downtown crime rate

    San Jose city government and downtown supporters for last 30 years still do not understand what needs to be done to attract retail developers and retailers.

    All local cities have built many highly successful attractive retail centers and downtowns that attract San Jose customers spending millions daily ( $2 billion per year ) with less problems

    Old Downtown has been and continues to be very unattractive retail location because of many political, cost, parking and planning problems for retail developers and unwillingness of downtown property owners to work with retailers, residents and potential customers to design attractive downtown destination shopping

    Downtown Retail Development Insanity –  Doing The Same Thing Over And Over Again And Expecting Different Results while every other local city downtown grows from San Jose residents spending $2 billions per year

  5. I was walking through the Market St. garage about lunchtime Monday, and the overpowering smell of stale urine pervaded the atmosphere.  Just where is that $5.00 parking tab after 10:00 p.m. going, into someone’s pocket?  Or is the city council conducting a nationwide search through various consutants to hire janitors to clean it up?

  6. If downtown clubs are “blighted” or “quick buck” operators and landlords have unpainted or rundown buildings why hasn’t anyone filed complaints to Code Enforcement to clean them up?  Call (408) 277-4528

    Is Richard Berg related to Carl Berg that SJI complains about frequently?

    Sounds like some downtown property owners make lots money from clubs and those who do not but want more money

  7. #4 provides a lot of important facts and details.  Add to them the RDA’s attempt to lift their debt caps to $12 billion!!! (read it in the SJ Business Journal)

    Quick story about downtown:  Couple of friends told me that they went downtown for dinner.  They parked on the street where the sign said no parking 9-5.  They checked their watches, it was 8 minutes to five.  When they got back from dinner, they had a $51 parking ticket that was issued at 4 minutes before five. Summary:  The city gets their $51 bucks, but the restaurant lost two customers, and my friends are so ticked off, they tell me that they are going to go out of their way to not dine downtown! 

    Pete Campbell

  8. In looking @ your header, Tom, I just reralized it could be read two ways.

    You probably meant: Whither The Downtown Asociation ??????

    Some of us would rather read it as : Wither the Dowtown Association!!!!!

    It’s a sinecure for Kneis, and a mouthpiece for troublemaking clubs,but what else is it???

  9. Tom,

    The Downtown Association has a vision for San Jose and is leading the way with tangible improvements today and in the future.

    Our vision is a cleaner, safer and more inviting city than what we have today.  We are making that vision come to reality by leading the effort in creating a Downtown Property Based Improvement District that will effectively double the amount of resources spent (beginning this January) on clean streets and a friendly environment.  And, this money will be spent outside of the City bureaucracy with real accountability.  We will all soon see the results of the Downtown Association’s leadership on this issue.

    Our vision is a fun city with entertaining venues.  Go visit the Gas Lamp District in San Diego or LoDo in Denver and you will witness what we would like to see occur in San Jose.  Attracting quality nightclub operators that will work with the San Jose Police has been a difficult challenge during the post-Tech Boom recession.  The Downtown Association has been persistent in bringing the quality operators and the Police together to find a better way to keep the City safe and inviting.

    We also share in the vision that is called 1stACT Silicon Valley.  Look it up at 1stAct.org.  The Association is committed to provide leadership and direction for this incredibly exciting initiative.

    These are the kind of steps an association of downtown business owners can take to make a better city.  But after all, it’s ultimately up to business owners, entrepreneurs and developers to create stores and places that people will want to frequent.  I am incredibly proud of my efforts in this regard as one of the creators of South First Billiards over twelve years ago.  The SoFA district used to be San Jose’s favorite hangout for prostitutes and porn.  Granted, some of today’s nightclubs in the district are not all that attractive, but the art studios and restaurants and the California Theatre form the backbone of an incredibly interesting part of our downtown.  I am sure when the highrise condos come in, the worst of the nightclubs will be ushered out; and this, too, is our vision for downtown.

  10. Does anyone no who owns the buillding that used to house Emmas and club miami?

    I just got a public notice of yet another nightclub going into that space.

    Tom, do you know who owns it.  and can you stop the insanity of yet another nightclub downtown?

  11. Eric, 

    “outside of the City bureaucracy with real accountability” implies Downtown Association does not believe city government has real accountability for our taxes spent on downtown,  economic development, developers projects and non profits

    Why has Downtown Association been silent on how to achieve real city government accountability while most of business community opposes community efforts to get real accountability for city and redevelopment tax money spending?

  12. Mr. Sahn,
    Can you please tell us why your association doesn’t address our dissatisfaction with your choices, and actions in downtown? The place is a dump, no one but troubled, drunk, young adults go there on the weekends and trash the place, and all you can do is quote how great you think your accomplishments are! I’m really sick of these discussions on this topic because you pass the buck onto business; the business owners pass the buck onto the Police, and the City. The City and Police pass the buck onto the business owners, and on and on. This is so typical of politics. Here’s my question to you, when and what are you going to do about this?

    Tom, I would have loved to see your column talk about traffic calming. It is a very serious issue. Downtown is never going to change as long as neighborhood associations, and the downtown association keep passing the buck. So short of a huge demonstration staged by citizens of San Jose, and decent business owners like you, I think you’ll have to continue to try and work around these no integrity ridden, pin heads who play pass the buck, to avoid taking responsibility for what they’re allowing to happen.

  13. Eric
      Thanks for the comments – you should feel incredibly proud of the contributions that you have made w. So. 1st St. Billiards. Since the old Sofa of hookers and johns was changed while I was in office, I know how bad it was, I was w. the group – citizens and police and school teacher – who took back the neighborhood.  It is for this reason that I view w. greatest concern the lobbying of Scott Knies for the ‘night club’ culture. I notice on the new PBID Board is none other than Mr. Berg. Could you possibly have him look for tenants that pay a bit less, spend some money on rehab, and cause fewer police problems. The DTAssoc. has often been the chief cheer leader for this ‘culture’ and it is in noted contrast to your efforts, IstACT, and most of us. Would you buy a condo across from many of these clubs? We have to wake up.  Keep pushing, Eric, your actions are appreciated, but don’t turn a blind eye to the negatives in the DTA’s role. A horrible stamp is now on the downtown after 11P – you know this as well as anyone.  TMcE

  14. I don’t go downtown at night because I don’t pay to park.  I was born in CA and it says so on my birth cert “Don’t pay to park”.

    Don’t want to worry I’ll stay after 10pm.  Thank goodness Sonoma Chicken is opening in Almaden so I can stay bunkered in for the winter.

    The club-owning landlords are being very short-sighted to not want to create areas with 24/7 attractions instead of 12 trashy hours/week. 

    Why are we not charging a HUGE fee for club owners so that regular businesses are more profitable.  How much sales tax does the City get from these clubs- I mean there is a reason for them ,right?

    If a “type of business” tax is the issue then charge by hours open. Assuming an open to the public business . (So semi-retired lawyers etc. don’t get charged).

  15. # 17 – Wondering Also:

    “It is apparent that you really have no knowledge of downtown; you have said yourself several times that you don’t come downtown, so why you feel qualified to comment repeatedly on downtown issues is beyond me.”

    How do you know this? Do you know Kathleen?  Do you know her habits?  Have you seen her in Downtown Campbell, where you claim she is “busy annoying shop owners in campbell with your [her] incessant browsing”? 

    And what is your relation to the issue?  Are you Mr. Sahn, whom Kathleen addressed her post, under the alias “wondering also”?  What is your relation to the issue?  Are you a member of the Downtown Association?

    It seems, from reading your post and Kathleens, that the both of you agree on many things around the Downtown; why did you find it necessary to take a few pot-shots at her, rather than just focusing on the issue at hand?  Your snide comments took away from the point you were making. 

    It seems to me that Kathleen was asking one central question:  what does the Downtown Association have the power to do about this situation? 

    Good question.

  16. #13- Woah! I beg your pardon? I am completely qualified to comment on downtown issues. I’ve lived in this City for the last 35 years, and I have spent the last 4 years working with the Police, business owners, and community organizations on downtown issues. I have and am sitting on several committees and boards addressing this problem.  Ultimately, the owners of these clubs are attracting garbage downtown, and ruining it for everyone.
    I work in the Victim Offender Program and part of my job includes ensure victims receive court ordered restitution for the damages caused to their properties, and their persons by these troublemakers in downtown. I get to see and hear things YOU don’t. My opinions are based on first hand knowledge and facts.

    As to your comments, “there are also lots of gems downtown that of course don’t get credit on this blog.  While you, Kathleen, are busy annoying shop owners in campbell with your incessant browsing, I’m busy taking my family downtown and shopping at the small businesses that are trying to take root there.  it’s always easier to be part of the problem and whine about the situation then it is to support small businesses and be part of the solution.”

    Shopping, eating, and doing things in downtown might be great for you and your family, go for it. I support responsible business owners too, but I chose to shop, eat, and pay for entertainment in safer cities, where the Police aren’t harassed for doing their jobs.
    As to your personal insults to me, all I can say is, you’re entitled to your opinion, and so am I. You don’t know a thing about me, so perhaps you might ask next time, before you accuse me of things you aren’t educated about.

  17. #16< You can’t be as dumb as you sound ?
    I take that back I bet that you are.
    when you go to other places, Santana Row?
    do you think they don’t add parking in when they price things? And if you think it’s your god
    given right not to pay for parking that’s fine we don’t need you here anyway. I bet you are the one person that was for that stupid car race?

  18. Can they reconcile nightclubs with new condos, late-night revelers with small business operators, and promotions that consistently bring boisterous and unruly crowds to so many of their events with a downtown of thriving neighborhoods and prosperous businesses?

    Small business thrive when there are big crowds. Crowded streets—even those crowded with the youth and the ethnicities you all hate so much—are safer than dark, empty streets.

    Why is there no piano bar or any other venue that you old WASPs say you want? Because you’d never actually bring your patronage downtown to make it profitable. Being young and not choked with racism, I often go downtown to do things like dance, laugh, meet friends, and strike up new acquaintances. I swim through the crowds you all try to stride nervously past while making no eye contact.

    I walked past the De Anza Hotel piano bar, the lounges in the Fairmont, Montgomery, and the one across from the Hilton many times and seen none of the “upscale” clientelle they try so hard to attract. Your generation is the generation that abandoned America’s downtowns for the suburbs, the mall, the freeway—the generation of white flight.

    Tom McEnery: Thank you for priming the downtown pump. You really made a very significant contribution. However, the peace-love-dope-reagan generation made its choice.

    In another 30 years, when my generation is well into middle age, city centers will have naturally become well-rounded. There are no shortcuts. There is no magic wand that can undo the past 40 years of neglect and disinvestment in 5 years.

  19. #13, Kathleen
    You should really take a look at George Green’s post.  It is apparent that you really have no knowledge of downtown; you have said yourself several times that you don’t come downtown, so why you feel qualified to comment repeatedly on downtown issues is beyond me. 

    There are some terrible nightclubs downtown.  There are also other attractions that bring people that cause trouble downtown- not the least of which are the huge hip hop concerts at tom’s own hp pavilion.  the last time that the hp pavilion had such a hip hop concert there was an incident at scores with a firearm.

    there are also lots of gems downtown that of course don’t get credit on this blog.  While you, Kathleen, are busy annoying shop owners in campbell with your incessant browsing, I’m busy taking my family downtown and shopping at the small businesses that are trying to take root there.  it’s always easier to be part of the problem and whine about the situation then it is to support small businesses and be part of the solution.

    I can’t wait for there to be more shopping and better places to go at night, but for now I’ll concentrate on keeping the places that I do like open by spending money at their coffers- a few boutiques scattered throughout, using the downtown cleaners and services, excellent steaks at zanottos, cool gifts at the museum stores, delicious lunch at bella mia, cool galleries on south first street, live music at a few of the “good” clubs, good lounging at paragon, hedley, perfect finish, etc- you just need to look around.

  20. Gee, George on #3 – I thought I did a bit more than just complain – we accomplished a few things when I was Mayor.  I live and work downtown – no retreat to Los Gatos or Los Altos (not that there is anything wrong with it) for me.  Downtown is a special place, but there is a disconnect, and part of it comes from the business community or lack there of. We need not cite again the failures on every level of the last decade: corrupt and incompetent. It is time to take stock and move forward. No, George, I did not, and do not let others do the work.  TMcE

  21. Guys, I have a solution for downtown nightlife woes.  Why don’t we have a piano bar with classy restaurant and more decent pubs.  Boy, Lucky Strike’s bowling alley sounds like a great thing for downtown.  Finally, we should have a 1,000-1,500 seat live band nightclub.  Stop whining and do something about it!

  22. YO Tom!!

    Why is it your downtown?

    Why do all the business down there be places you’re proud of?

    Why can’t it be OUR downtown, why can’t we embrace our differences?

    Why are the young men and women in their 20’s enjoying great music, wonderful drinks and life making memories such a bad thing?

    Why are we criminals?

    What is “disgusting” about spending hard earned money at a downtown business such a bad thing?

    Is downtown big enough for everyone?

    My mom is in her late 50’s, shes not afraid to go downtown.

    What exactly is “garbage”?

    The lightly cloaked racism i read on a daily basis is disgusting, no really it is.

    “these people” “these nightclubs”
    “thugs” “losers” etc etc.

    Please give me a break.

    Why aren’t we happy that we have a thriving nightlife downtown?

    What do we suggest take the place of “these” clubs?

    Some of you make me sick, no really you do.

  23. #10
      The Emma’s site, known as the Lyndon Building, is owned by the McEnery family. It is a fine historic bldg., has great potential, and is the home of the Britannia Arms. We are proud of it and San Pedro Sq. and the work that the small bus. people do.  It is NOT going to be the site of “another” nighclub.  It will be a business that invests money, works hard, and enlivens the city.  TMcE

  24. #23- Since when is race the issue here? It is not, and I’m really tired of people like you making it one. People are urinating in the garages, fighting in public, driving drunk, destroying people’s property, and shooting, and stabbing people in downtown on the weekend, and that makes them garbage to me. I didn’t hear anyone on this blogg referring to race here, but you.
    These downtown clubs are attracting people from Oakland, and other areas known for violence. They are ruining downtown for decent good folks, of ALL colors, cultures, and religions. They are harming small business owners who are just trying to feed their families. My concern here is the rights of the rest of us who DON’T behave like gang bangers. 
    You are trying to make this a racial issue to avoid looking at the harm these lawless young folks are responsible for. That makes me sick. Nowhere on this blogg did anyone single out any ethnic group or race. My question to you is, just when are these trouble makers going to start being held accountable for their actions, and the money they are costing tax payers to clean up their booze bottles, their urine in garages, and for paying the Police to stop their violent behavior?

  25. #23 –

    “The lightly cloaked racism i read on a daily basis is disgusting, no really it is.

    “these people” “these nightclubs”
    “thugs” “losers” etc etc.

    Please give me a break.

    Why aren’t we happy that we have a thriving nightlife downtown?

    What do we suggest take the place of “these” clubs?

    Some of you make me sick, no really you do.

    Posted by East Side Dre”

    Thriving downtown?  Are you referring to the patrons of these bars who urinate on parking structures and buildings, fight in the streets, harass people, and cost the City and taxpayers millions to keep the peace?  Is that what you are referring to as a ‘thriving downtown’?  Keep in mind that you,  too, are a taxpaper.  Your friends and your family, if they live in San Jose, are also taxpayers.  It is OUR money, millions of it, that go towards keeping the peace while these drunk patrons cause this havoc.  That is money that could be better spent fixing OUR streets, on upkeep for OUR neighborhood parks, stopping speeding traffic in OUR neighborhoods to name a few worthy causes. 

    You are the one who brought up racism, no one else.  Everyone else was focused on the harm these patrons were causing to the City and our downtown by their unruly behavior.  A triving nightlife in downtown is a good thing.  The havoc that is being caused presently when these bars let out is not.

  26. Are you referring to the patrons of these bars who urinate on parking structures and buildings, fight in the streets, harass people, and cost the City and taxpayers millions to keep the peace? 

    Does this type of thing actually happen, or is this just what the perpetual bloggers of SJI thinks happen? 

    Just because it might happen once in a while does not mean that it happens on a regular basis.  If that were true then even suburbia, or Campbell, would fit this picture.

    It seems that the ones who complain the most about these activities are the same ones who say they never go downtown.

  27. Katheen,
    Don’t even waste your time responding to those like ‘East Side Dre’. Your blogs in this subject are right on point, and reflective of 95% of everyone else. Race has nothing to do with this. This is a matter of too many intoxicated people, concentrated in too small of an area, mixed in with a lot of raging young hormones. The results are predictable and will not change no matter what spin is put on this matter. Many of the trouble makers come from out of San Jose. The city sends a disproportionate number of an already understaffed police department to deal with the problems, depriving services to other parts of the city.  I enjoy taking my wife and young kids to the Spaghetti Factory, Sharks games, the Tech Museum, Discovery Museum, Christmas in the Park, etc. When I do, I stay as far away from downtown as I can to avoid the ‘entertainment area’. There is just nothing there for a family at night time. Downtown San Jose has much to offer aside from the entertainment area. It really looks great for the most part but if families don’t feel safe, they will not go there, especially at night time. I am sure the ‘Downtown Association’ realizes this. All the ‘soft closings’ or other such proposals will not change the current situation.

    I am so tired of hearing that this is a racial issue, or the police department’s fault. There are segments in our population and business community (club owners) who love to throw this out. It is a diversion from taking personal responsibility. I have read many of Kathleen’s posts and never, never has she come across as remotely racist. I am not racist. My wife is Hispanic and I am of Jewish origin. We feel the same way about the ‘entertainment area’. Nothing to do with the racial mix. I just don’t want to expose my family to a bunch of drunk idiots, and put my family in harms way.

  28. #21. No, hated the not-so-Grand Prix. It wasted money—taxpayer money. Like the parking fees -that are a tax on taxpayers who already built the buildings.

    Santana Row- you like the item-you like the price-you buy. Sure the land for parking is included in the businesses’ rent—but I don’t have to pay another fee years later- one NOT connected to the item.

  29. #28 –

    “Does this type of thing actually happen, or is this just what the perpetual bloggers of SJI thinks happen? 

    Just because it might happen once in a while does not mean that it happens on a regular basis.  If that were true then even suburbia, or Campbell, would fit this picture.”

    Funny – Campbell has Katie Blooms, and a few other bars, and yet, you don’t see people Urinating in public, fighting, or harrassing other poeple.  Los Gatos has plenty of Bars; yet, you don’t see any public urination, fighting, etc.  Mountiain View, again, has many bars; no public urination, fighting or destructive behavior.  In all these Cities, you do not see any need for the Police to be downtown in force.  In San Jose, however, that need exists. 

    Again, a thriving night life is a good thing.  Destructive behavior by drunken patrons that cost the citizens of San Jose millions of dollars is not.

  30. Thank you Dave.

    #28- This type of thing happens so much so the Mayor and Council passed a $5.00 parking fee to clean up trash, and urine in the garages. Don’t you read the paper, or watch TV?
    I’m tired of hearing “It seems that the ones who complain the most about these activities are the same ones who say they never go downtown. ” We have been downtown and we don’t want to be exposed to these elements! My God, no one said, ” I NEVER go downtown, or I’ve NEVER gone downtown.” Ugh~
    I agree with Dave, and Jean. It is the type of element in downtown that is harming the growth of our city, and business owners.
    I too love to go dancing, have a drink once in awhile, so I’m not knocking people wanting to have fun. I just don’t think that drunken fights, out of town trouble makers yelling, screaming, and assulting people is “FUN.”
    Has anyone ever thought about the poor tax paying citizens LIVING in downtown? God, it must be a nightmare for them. The streets are packed with partiers, driving to and from home must be a new experience in hell, and the loud noise and music must be aweful. I just can’t see more housing in downtown being all that successful, that is unless they push out some of these night clubs.

  31. East Side Dre,
    You are the one who comes off as a racist. If something doesn’t go your way or to your liking, throw out the race card because everyone wants to be politically correct. You are the one who has lumped different groups together with your broad condemnations, thus polorizing different races against each other.

    Race is not an issue. If race were an issue us
    “honkies” wouldn’t be living in San Jose. San Jose is one of the most diverse big cities in the United States. Our family friends and neighbors come from every racial mix and ethnicity. This blows out your ridiculous argument that us honkies don’t go downtown due to the racial make up of the customers. Once again, with no hidden meanings, I don’t take my family downtown because of the drunk thugs, be they white, black, brown, burnt orange, lavendar, aquamarine, or forest green.

    The arguments you use, is the same baloney spouted by the police auditor and her band of ‘community activists’; don’t take responsibility for your personal actions. Remember the first thing to say is “this must be because of my race” and “the police are picking me out because of my race”. Group victimization is the most destructive and insidious thing these self proclaimed activists could do for the groups they proclaim to be standing up for. East Side Dre, please quit it with the racial doo doo; us honkies are just trying to get along too.

  32. #34- You must be joking right?  I go to the Improve on a THURSDAY night, or Comedy Sports. If I go to a restaurant, to a play, or concert in downtown on the weekend, I go in the afternoon, or very early evening before the clubs are popping with trouble makers. I’m not afraid to go downtown, I CHOOSE not to go on weekends evenings, for all the reasons I’ve already stated.
    You seem pretty hell bent on making us sound like ignorant, frightened, white racists because we choose not to want to be downtown because of the violence. You seem to want to use race to excuse the horrific violent behavior of thugs downtown, and okay out of towners who stab people, assualt people, and get drunk by saying they add to the City’s tax revenue. That is just bunk.
    I just came from a wedding at St. Joseph’s Church on Market. This GANG of 20 year olds, peeled by the church going at least 20 miles over the speed limit dam near knocking people crossing the street down. It was only 7:30 p.m. when this happened, and you expect people to want to go down there and feel safe?
    Man, you are way out there dude.

  33. YO!!

    Ok,so lets get one thing straight right off the bat.  I am not a thug defender, but we are not blind and we need to stop pretending race is not an underlying factor in a lot of the fear some talk about on here.

    Really why are some of you afraid to go downtown after dark?  I love downtown San Jose.  I love the restaurants, I love the Improv.  And yes I’ve been to just about every restaurant, bar and club downtown.  I don’t think there are many others who read this blog who have actually experienced these establishments firsthand.

    What is disturbing to me is how trouble is painted with such broad strokes.  If you go downtown after dark, you are not going to get killed.  You will see lots of diversity and there is nothing to be afraid of.

    Are people really upset that people are coming from out of town, and contributing to our city’s taxbase?  Isn’t that the goal of each and every business downtown and otherwise?

    Obviously there is a demand for entertainment, and businessowners are capitalizing on it.  Why is that a bad thing?

    Please stop the “race is not an issue” comments.  Go downtown and look at the racial makeup of the bar patrons and club hoppers.  It is obvious that this makes some of you uncomfortable.

  34. East side dre, I hear you on this.  It’s funny to me that so many are saying that you’re the one bringing race into the issue, and then in the same breath saying “those oakland thugs”.  Um, how do you know they’re from oakland?

    the violence level downtown is not as bad as people are making it out to be.  Yes, there are problems.  But there are not stabbings and shootings on a regular basis.  It would, of course, be ideal if there were none.  But it is not dangerous downtown; not nearly as bad as many are trying to make it sound.  there are not shootings and stabbings on a weekly or monthly basis.  There is no need, if you are just out and about, to fear for your life- the sky is not falling.  I’ve lived and worked down here for over 15 years, so I think I have some room to comment. 

    ..and hate to break it to some on this board, but YES, Campbell and Mountain View have to deal with their share of public urination and other problems that frankly come with the territory of nightclubs.  It’s impossible to try to compare those downtowns with San Jose’s downtown, because SJ is much larger – Campbell and Mountain View are dealing with a few blocks at most.

    I think it’s great that many have an open mind about downtown, and I hope that as things change for the better- which is happening- others who may be afraid today will be able to find their niche and walk confidently through the streets of downtown one day very soon.

  35. #38 –

    No one ever claimed that these other cities don’t have any crime as a result of their nightclubs; the claim is that they have just as many bars/nightclubs on their main streets as San Jose, and yet, they don’t have the need for the sheer numbers of police, on an everyday basis, that San Jose does. 

    You know, San Jose used to have a system called pay-jobs, where nightclubs were able to hire cops to help police their establishments.  That system existed for quite some time, and you never heard of the problems then that you hear of now.  Officers were able to spot trouble makers early, and take care of those individuals, so that the rest of the people who want to enjoy their night could, safely. The Independent Police Auditor had that system thrown out – if I remember correctly, she said paying officers directly could be a conflict of interest.  Ok, I agree with that; however, we could modify that system to elimanate the conflict of interest – have bars pay the City (like a fee for a specialized, much needed service) and officers could be assigned to a bar or an area.  That way, officers could take care of trouble makers and problems early, with the cooperation of the nightclubs and the people attending them, and ensure a safer downtown for everyone.

    As I have said before – a thriving nightlife is a good thing; the urination, violence, harrassment, and need for all the police we have today is not a good thing – for anyone!

  36. #38- And your point is what, that every City has crime? That too many young people are abusing alcohol and drugs? You’d be right on both counts. Every City has crime, and too many young people are drinking, fighting, and creating problems for the community, and for the Police. The difference in San Jose is that the Police are accused of racial profiling, and/or excessive force when they try to do their jobs. Campbell Police don’t. I guess it’s because the majority of citizens are white.
    San Jose’s murder rate has been climbing since the first of the year. To me, that is very alarming. I’m not sure what is creating this latest trend, but I know it isn’t the Police, nor is it a racial issue. I’ve often wondered if it’s the increase in drug and alcohol use, the rising cost of living, and economics. People are working harder, paying more, and getting less. Either way, things are getting worse all over. Sad, very sad.
    I’d sure like to know why drug and alcohol abuse is on the rise, especially with regards to youth, and young adults.

  37. This post is for all the downtown supporters.

    “Two fights at night clubs in San Jose early Sunday morning injured several people and ended with five others jailed on suspicion of assault and other crimes.
    Around 1 a.m. San Jose police were called to deal with a large fight inside Club Motif near San Salvador Street on First Street downtown, according to police records.


    The moral of the story is this crap happens everywhere. 

    Where is the Taliban when you need them?

  38. #38.

    I read the link. This incident occurred at Taco Bravo by the old Tower Records’, not downtown Campbell. Also, an interesting parallel to the San Jose situation is that the troublemakers were from Hollister.

    Just to reiterate, race is not the issue in our downtown’s problems. Only to those crying racism in the prior posts have this state of mind. Drunk fools are drunk fools; same reason I stayed away from Saddlerack when it was open. A bunch of mostly white wanna be honky tonk urban cowboys getting drunk and living out their wild west fantasy on a mechanical bull and fighting over women. Wouldn’t have surprised me to see Hoss, Pa, and Little Joe there sometime after they just rode off the Ponderosa. Just as idiotic as what goes on with the alcohol permeated entertainment area in downtown San Jose, and that is why we stay away. Nothing else and don’t make it something else.

  39. Word to all you SJI crackers in rainbow clothing – East Side be trying to drop some streetwise on your intolerant lilly white hiney’s.

    How dare you so called liberals be so judgemental and intolerant of hip hop culture? 

    “Bitches”, “Ho’s”, gangsta’s, shooting up nightclubs – you lip-service liberals need to walk the walk and show more compassion and understanding for other cultures.

  40. #38- Today’s paper-
    Night club brawls in San Jose result in injuries, arrests
    By Leslie Griffy
    Mercury News
    Article Launched: 10/08/2007 09:29:22 AM PDT
    Two fights at night clubs in San Jose early Sunday morning injured at least two people and ended with five others jailed on suspicion of assault and other crimes.
    Around 1 a.m. San Jose police were called to deal with a large fight inside Club Motif near San Salvador Street on First Street in downtown, San Jose police officer Enrique Garcia said.
    As bouncers and other staff tried to break up the fight, brawlers attacked them with bottles, injuring their heads and faces, according to police documents.
    Officers who arrived on the scene saw club security trying to clear the brawlers from the bar, Garcia said. One of the men tried to fight with bouncers as they moved him out of the bar.
    Police arrested five people on suspicion of assault and being drunk in public, Garcia said. Officers didn’t leave the club, which opened last month, until 3 a.m.
    While officers were handling the fight at Motif, someone called 911 to report another large fight at a night club on Coleman Avenue around 1:30 a.m.
    When officers arrived at Club Rodeo, they found a 24-year-old man bleeding in the street, Garcia said. He told officers he was injured after a group of five people made a comment to one of his friends and the groups began fighting.
    The suspects in the second fight ran away before officers arrived.
    Anyone with information about either fight is asked to call San Jose Police Department’s assault unit at (408) 277-4161.

  41. #43, Novice –

    If you had been paying attention, this discussion has nothing to do with race, the hip-hop culture, the size of nose, or the color of your hair.  It has only to do with the actions that necessitate the need for the extreme police force downtown. 

    Now, if you are inferring that all this violence, public urination, and harrassment that necessitates the need for the extreme police presence downtown is a part of the hip-hop culture, then I say to you that is a horribly discriminatory statement, and one that I disagree with.

  42. #42- Well Dave, according to the IPA, the NAACP, County’s OHR, and the ACLU, you, the Mercury News, the Civil Grand Jury, Police stats, and me are completely wrong about out of towners coming here and starting trouble. According to the IPA, NAACP, the County’s OHR, and the ACLU, our WHOLE Police department is racist and abusive. It’s not really that these poor criminals are at fault don’t you know? They didn’t really mean to stab, beat, maim, or kill anyone, really they didn’t. They are being picked on because they’re black or brown don’t you know Dave?
    You see Dave, we’re white racist who don’t know anything about other cultures. We’re too frightened to go downtown and see for ourselves, so people like East Side Dre, and I think I love you, have to enlighten us about the way the, “Other people”…. live, and behave because we couldn’t possibly know, or understand anything outside of our white race.
    And no Dave, it doesn’t matter that you are of Jewish decent, or that your wife is not white, or that my two half sisters are biracial, or that either one of us fight for racial equality, or that we want children, seniors, family, neighbors, or friends, never mind ourselves, to be safe when we go out to enjoy our weekends. Come on Dave and all you other privileged, over educated, wealthy white folks, get with it! It’s perfectly okay to be lawless in downtown, and to encourage irresponsible club owners to ply young adults with too much liquor, and to pay $5.00 to park to clean up urine, used condoms and God knows what else that we aren’t responsible for causing! East Side Dre, and I think I love you say so, (Probably the same person) so he/she must be right. So right that he/she puts their real name on their post.

  43. Yo!!: #34 wrote “Go downtown and look at the racial makeup of the bar patrons and club hoppers.  It is obvious that this makes some of you uncomfortable.”

    So what U R saying East Side Dre #34 is that the makeup of downtown partiers is mostly non-white and is scaring away the white folks.  What that means, DRE, is that according to YOU the troublemakers are most likely non-white too.  Is that what U R sayin’, DRE?  And so, DRE, would that help to explain the alleged racial imbalance of arrestees in the downtown core?

    So would you have us believe , DRE, that if all the drunken violent “partygoers” were white that we white folks wouldn’t mind that, and we’d head downtown for some headknockin’?

    Oh, #41, and what was Club Motif called last month?  Another name change (to protect the guilty) is in the offing again, I’m sure.

  44. Perhaps Mr. Knies and his highly paid staff (or is it only Scott that’s highly paid?…I don’t know)could concedntrate on getting folks downtown weekday evenings and weekend days so businesses other than nightclubs could thrive downtown.

    Once again I was downtown last Saturday having lunch @ Capers Loft and trying to watch the Oklahoma Texas game, despite the incessant ramblings of the only other customer in the place—a man named Wilson who said he was a tree surgeon running for US Senate.  He wouldn’t shut up, despite my turning away and reading the sports page while watching the game and eating an otherwise ignorning him.  So I quickly finished my meal and left.

    Guess he was lonely, since he and I were the only customers.

    I left and walked back to my office @ Third & St. John.  I saw a few folks eating outside Zanotto’s, but otherwise the downtown was a ghost town.

    I immediately drove to Santana Row to get a book @ Borders, since the Borders Express in the “Retail Pavilion” closed in May…presumably due to lack of business.

    It took me quite some time to find a FREE parking place in any of the lots (I went through 4 of them to no avail), all of which were filled to capacity.  I lucked on a spot recently vacated on the street right next to Borders front door. The place (Santana Row)was TEEMING with folks of all ages.  Quite a contrast to our moribund downtown.

    So, no matter what anyone may say negatively about Santana Row—it’s full, and downtown SJ is empty.

    Knies, take notice, and do what they do.  It works, and what you are doing doesn’t work.

  45. #49- Now JMO, you can’t ask questions like that because they’ll think you’re a white racist. We white folks aren’t allowed to point out the facts, or even have intelligent conversations about this or any other issue having to do with downtown because as Mr. Dre and his side kick have pointed out, we are just plain white racists, who don’t realize how misinformed, and discriminatory we’re being.
    Remember JMO, no more intelligent conversation on this, just bow your head in acceptence, and admit it, we’re all too white, and stupid to see the light.

  46. I have a new idea for a Duncan Hines Cakemix named, “White Racist Supreme”.  No, don’t buy the Chocolate frosting – we wouldn’t understand that type of mixture….

    Remember, they use WHITE flour as the main ingredient, not brown flower….

    That is how rediculous you sound, DRE.

  47. I dunno, Jean # 53—I think that white, racist, suburban, stay-at-home Mom with her 2.2 kids and a dog, who never goes anywhere unless it’s full of white people, Betty Crocker, already has the patent on that cake mix.

  48. Maybe it is time to try something radical. Pull all the police officers working thousands of hours of overtime to control the downtown binge drinking, I mean entertainment area. Have them work traffic enforcement instead, and Pierluigi won’t have to have community meetings about “traffic calming measures”. What exactly is “traffic calming”? Is it adding a Valium to the tank at each fill up? But I digress. Let all the peace loving club patrons and bar owners stand on their own. They love blaming the police and non minorities for all the tensions downtown. Ok, maybe it is time to call their bluff. Clear the police, aside from a beat officer, from downtown. Lets see what happens. Maybe everything will go great, there will be no problems, and we will be proved wrong. I think, however, it will turn to a critical mass situation. It will beg for an immediate and overwhelming solution, then we can all stop tap dancing around this issue, quit being politically correct, quit pacifying every special interest group with an axe to grind, and see the situation for what it is. We keep putting bandaids on the gaping wounds expecting it to get better. Time for that wound to turn to gangrene and either it will miraculously heal, or we need to cut it off.

  49. Howdy folks,

    So I’m glad you love reading what I write so much.  i really love the attention.  I have a few questions, maybe this is the place to find answers.

    1)  Of the 24 (and I heard it’s rising) homicides in the city this year, how many occurred in a downtown night club, in a downtown parking lot, or could be attributed to any activities in a downtown night club?  I really don’t know the answer.  But I’m guessing around 23.

    2)  Instead of the current lineup of nightclubs downtown, what which would u like to see removed and what would you like to take their places?  I personally think an ESPNZone would be a slam dunk, but what the hell do I know, I’m a thug.

    3) How many people went to night clubs this weekend?  15,000?  and of those 15,000 how many caused trouble to make the Merc, maybe 20?  So I am glad that due to the actions of so few people you have more bullets in your arsenals of fear.

    Now it’s all good, we don’t like to all like the same thing.  But I hate to see things that I like to do vilified by some of you on here.  Especially since the ones you are vilifying do not have a voice.

    I do not have an ax to grind, but stop with the broad generalizations and fear.  I’m sure I’m just being racist.. carry on

  50. #59 – “You said it, we white racists didn’t.”

    <sarcasm>Great comeback, Kathleen.</sarcasm>

    I’ve read a lot of these threads about downtown, all you do is bitch and moan day in and day out about “thugs” and “lowlifes” or whatever you call anyone that goes to downtown. Now, when somebody comes back at you with some valid points, you reply with some childish elementary school comeback. Why don’t you respond to any of Dre’s 3 points in the previous reply?

    You and your lynch mob are showing your true colors.

  51. I prepare for work and tie my shoe lace
    I read a blog that talked about race
    I read again and try to retrace
    Downtown must have a growing tax base
    All must be welcomed, we must embrace
    As I look in your eyes and see your face
    Fill downtown with love, warmth and grace
    With rainbows, bunnies, roses, sunshine is my case
    No pepper spray or mace
    No high speed police chase
    Love, peace and happiness will fill the space

  52. Amen #67,

    Also, Katheen, whichever one of the 1,000’s in the southbay that you are, you mentioned there isn’t a bakery downtown.

    There is a good one on Santa Clara and third.  It’s called mexico bakery; very good breads, sandwiches and treats.

    J.Walker (my own name)

  53. #60- Think what you will, but color me neutral, your comments aren’t neutral. It seems to me that you’re the one who really needs to look at your own motivations here, and stop judging other people because you think we’re white. You must be of the opinion that we are white, based on our names because you don’t know us, nor have you seen us. Isn’t that in and of its self clearly discriminatory?  Think about it.

    But, I’d like to explain one thing to you because I think you’re missing the point. If you go back and read this entire post, at no time does any one speak of race, but rather the problems of the Downtown Association, and the violence in downtown. For some reason, you, Mr. Dre, and I think I love you, have decided that anyone who finds the behavior of drunken, violent patrons to be unacceptable must surely be a racist white idiot. You guys or ladies, don’t know which because you’re hiding behind fake names, have tried to make us white folks sound like fearful, uneducated on differing cultures, and racist because we use terms like thugs, trouble makers etc. You immediately judged those descriptions as racist, based on your own personal bias, or your own perception of white people. You scream discrimination where there is none, implied or otherwise, and now that we are pushing back, back you can’t handle it so you pull the race card.
    Quite frankly, I’m sick and tired of the race card being pulled every time one of these topics is brought up, so rather than take you bunch seriously, I have decided to find the humor in the unjust way you three or one, or two, we’re not sure if you’re the same person or not, have behaved toward me and others on this blogg.
    I don’t have to justify or defend my opinions to anyone. I know my own heart, and I know my work of 30 years, in the anti discrimination field keeps me in check. I have nothing to apologize for, nor defend, but I will not tolerate anymore of this reverse discrimination on your parts either.
    If we were allowed to openly discuss these topics without being judged this posting would have been fruitful to all of us. We could have talked about solutions to the problem, and more importantly tried together to define the real problems here.
    Ah, but you guys have chosen to take the honest opinions of all of us, and turn it into a self-aggrandizing platform for your own personal bias and discriminatory feelings of us, by refusing to acknowledge the facts of who is causing the violence in downtown and why downtown is in such dire need of help. So, as my Dad used to say, “Don’t pick a fight unless you have the facts to back it up.”
    The ball is in your court now Mr. Color Me Neutral, but I can tell you this much; I’d quit while I was ahead and focus on the real issues here and they are as follows:
    The first is being respectful of differing opinions, learning tolerance for others, and obtaining some personal growth from opinions outside your own clique. Look, we’re all in this together, and if you don’t believe that look at how many people came together after the earthquake here in 1989, or after 911, or after Katrina, and many other serious disasters in our country. People are basically good, regardless of color. Try not to forget that no man is an island.

  54. Oh man – what a day at SJI!  Let’s go to the tape and recap the action.

    – East Side Dre says SJI is full of lightly cloaked racism
    – Dave says Kathleen isn’t racist
    – Planner says he’s not choked with racism
    – Kathleen says East Side Dre is a racist since he brought it up.
    – Jean seconds Kathleen’s charge that East Side is the real racist.
    – Dave reassures Kathleen to pay no heed to East Side’s accusations of racism.
    – Dave vouches for Kathleen that she’s not a racist as he has read many of her posts.
    – Dave establishes absolute non-racist moral authority by telling us he’s Jewish and his wife is Hispanic.
    – East Side hips the board to his street cred with a “YO!!” and then tells the board to drop the “this is not about racism” charade.
    – Kathleen takes East Side to school for race baiting.
    – Dave once again accuses East Side of being the real racist and to knock off the racial doo.
    – I Think I Love You weighs in on East Side’s behalf but doesn’t disclose gender identification.
    – Novice hits a double into the corner clearing the bases.
    – JMO gets into the mix imitating someone emailing from Hyderabad.
    And then all hell breaks loose with chocolate cake recipes and white flour.
    Color Me Neutral weighs in with a completely uninspired KKK reference.
    Lee Pac trots out a lynch mob reference for good measure.

    This is the funniest thread – Evah!

    This thread is almost as funny and almost as relevant as watching diving soccer players. http://youtube.com/watch?v=5epK4YFFjh4

  55. he place is a dump, no one but troubled, drunk, young adults go there on the weekends and trash the place

    .  Ultimately, the owners of these clubs are attracting garbage downtown, and ruining it for everyone.

    Kathleen… those are two of your original comments.  They spew of fear and hate.  Besides being completely untrue, but that’s besides the point.

    I think it’s kinda funny that because there are several posters with views that oppose yours, it must be the same person.  Get over yourself please.

    My name is Dre, and I’m from the East Side, what more information would you like?  Do you want to meet me at Toons for drinks Friday night?

    On post 56, I asked a couple of questions.  You seem very well qualified to answer a few of them care to entertain us?  I mean you’re here to create dialog, and I’m all for it.

  56. East Side #56:

    Of the last half dozen homicides in San Jo, most occurred on the East Side and all the
    perpetrators and all the victims had Hispanic surnames. 

    So I suppose “Neutral” # 60 will call me a racist for pointing out that FACT.

    I’m a white boy grew up in Inglewood.  If I were a racist, i’d have had my ass kicked up and down the block a thousand times.

    To those who slap the name racist on everyone who decries the thug element, check yourselves out.  No one mentions race or skin color when decrying thugs, but you labelers call us racist.  Is that because you yourselves assume the race/skin color of the thugs to be non-white?

  57. #65

    Mr. Dre,

    What I like about Kathleen is that she accuses others of using a nom de plume, yet is blind to the fact that her name, as used, is just another nom de plume of one more anonymous poster.

  58. Mr. Dre, etal. I think that nothing will satisfy you until you get me, and others on this blogg to agree with you. I think you’ll have a very long wait.

    Mr. Dre, if you read my previous comments, I think I’ve provided the answers you sought, even though you don’t like the answers I gave and tried to twist this around to make yourself right.

    To the rest of your linebackers, the clock has run out for you all, you have your own opinions, perceptions, personal bias which you are entitled to. My views remain unchanged, but nice try guys.

    The wonderful thing about the country we live in is that allows you and I freedom of expression. And fellows, you certainly did express yourselves well. Back to work for me!

    KKK (Kathleen Kathleen Kathleen)
    Of course #60- isn’t a racist! Humm…..

  59. #70- “To those who slap the name racist on everyone who decries the thug element, check yourselves out. “

    You raise a very excellent point here that I’d like to address. You and I are older. I’m 50. In my youth, the term, “thug,” was used to describe a troublemaker, criminal, lawless person. It was never associated with race. Now or days, it is associated by SOME to mean persons of color. Here in lies the communication break down, and is the one of the reasons we are being called racists. It is their personal bias, and personal experience that leads them to believe we are being racist, even though we both know, that is not the manner in which we mean the term, “thug, etc.”
    The second issue here is that it has become acceptable to practice reverse discrimination on whites, and not to allow us an opinion on issues that differ from the status quo.
    Case in point, if you are white and you think illegal immigrants should be deported, you will be called a racist. Now you may hold that these people are breaking the law, and therefore should be deported, but many folks turn it into a race issue, when to many, that is just not the case. It is a case of lawlessness.
    Also, you can have a Black, Asian, Hispanic, Vietnamese, LGBT club, group, shopping center, student union, etc., but if you have one named after a white group, you are termed racist, or a white supremacists. New laws governing anti discrimination goes even further by not allowing any more just men, or just women’s groups either.
    It’s very sad that the world has come to this because in my day, true racism was horrific. I saw my Black, Hispanic, and gay friends beaten, bullied, and even passed over in jobs they quailifed for. Unfortunately, it is still a problem. 
    So JMO, I guess all I can say to you is that if in your heart, you know you’re not a racist, then hold your ground. I am.

  60. #53- Do you know where I can buy that cake mix?

    #54- JMO, you don’t know if we can buy a piece of the Betty Crocker cake in downtown San Jose’s bakery do you? Oh, that’s right, there isn’t one! I guess I will go searching in Campbell, Saratoga, Sunnyvale, you know, white folks country!

    You crack me up John!

  61. #55- Well said Dave! As my old Auntie used to say, ” The proof is in the pudding!”

    Hummmm, what is traffic calming? Valium in our gas tank, good one!

  62. 56-  Perhaps you might consider going to school and getting an education instead of partying. Your writing needs work. 

    “I do not have an ax to grind, but stop with the broad generalizations and fear.”

    Funny this comment seems very much a generalization of a group of people you have never met, and know nothing about.

    I’m sure I’m just being racist.. carry on”

    You said it, we white racists didn’t.

    Next time try posting under your real name, unless of course you have something to fear.

  63. #57 KKK (Kathleen Kathleen Kathleen) says:

    JMO, you don’t know if we can buy a piece of the Betty Crocker cake in downtown San Jose’s bakery do you? Oh, that’s right, there isn’t one! I guess I will go searching in Campbell, Saratoga, Sunnyvale, you know, white folks country!

    Are you trying to be funny, or subconsciously showing your true colors? 

    You certainly do kiss up to JMO a lot, and he is, along with finfan and Novice, one of SJI’s bona-fide racists.

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